Matt's system part 2

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Re: Matt's system part 2

Postby Muser » Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:12 am

The Antivibration magic sounds good. There seems to be a number of products recently that are dedicated to reducing vibrations in components within hifi. It leads me to believe they might just be onto something.

Matt: It is pretty remarkable stuff. After using it, I came to wonder whether the extra thick face plates and chassis' in expensive gear that some deride might play a role in damping vibrations. While I would wager jewelry face plates adds nothing to the sound, the weight and thickness might play a role in damping the transmission of low level vibrations.
A friend has been experimenting with other materials, but found the AVM to work pretty darn well.

AlexK wrote:
Sounds like they're onto your bank account! The 'physics' of vibration-reducing paint are somewhat questionable (to say the least).


AlexK, re: "questionable" I'll agree, it is intelligent to ask questions or inquire. However, it seems to me that one either has to listen to the answer provided and analyze that or do your own checking; asking a question and providing your own answer without further investigation . . . .

This reminds me of the Zen Koan that goes:
"If you understand, things are the way they are;
If you don't understand, things are the way they are."

The material works or it doesn't; surmise is surmise, not reality.

The website was completely unconvincing to me, so I asked people I know who had tried it. An importer of the stuff informed me the paint is infused with a very dense material, which I thought might make a difference, just as thick face plates might damp vibrations (heavier and denser, means more energy needed to excite it). I used it and was bowled over. Whereas I thought it might be a rip off at the price when I ordered, after using it, I think it's a relative bargain.

My experience is that the AVM marketing sounds like BS, but it works much better than damping the chassis with any other material.

Peace

Larry
ATC SCM20-2A, Onkyo 885(a) preamp processor, YBA 1 Alpha preamp, Amazon Model 2 tt, Moerch DP6 arm and Dynavector XX2MkII cartridge, Oppo 105, Twisted Pear Audio Buffalo 32S DAC (balanced out) Kubala Sosna Expression cabling. Two 15" Acoustic Elegance subwoofers, powered by QSC RMX 2450 amplifier w/ minidsp equalization.

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Re: Matt's system part 2

Postby Alexk » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:33 am

Muser wrote:AlexK wrote:
Sounds like they're onto your bank account! The 'physics' of vibration-reducing paint are somewhat questionable (to say the least).


AlexK, re: "questionable" I'll agree, it is intelligent to ask questions or inquire. However, it seems to me that one either has to listen to the answer provided and analyze that or do your own checking; asking a question and providing your own answer without further investigation . . . .

This reminds me of the Zen Koan that goes:
"If you understand, things are the way they are;
If you don't understand, things are the way they are."

The material works or it doesn't; surmise is surmise, not reality.

The website was completely unconvincing to me, so I asked people I know who had tried it. An importer of the stuff informed me the paint is infused with a very dense material, which I thought might make a difference, just as thick face plates might damp vibrations (heavier and denser, means more energy needed to excite it). I used it and was bowled over. Whereas I thought it might be a rip off at the price when I ordered, after using it, I think it's a relative bargain.

My experience is that the AVM marketing sounds like BS, but it works much better than damping the chassis with any other material.

Peace

Larry



The only issue is listening bias - it has been shown time and time again that there are many supposed 'upgrades' or improvements to be had in the performance of a sound system, particularly in home audio but also in the professional world, which when subjected to a double-blind listening test scenario are actually revealed to have very little if any affect on the perceived audio quality. This seems to have particular relevance to the world of cabling and other ancillary upgrades. While not all of this is snake-oil, there does seem to be an awful-lot of it about and I would worry that the anti-vibration magic paint we're talking about here might be just that. The science is most certainly stacked against it. Paint is not known for it's ability to 'absorb' kinetic energy (actually it would just be converting it into heat if we followed the theory of thicker faceplates being able to absorb more energy before they begin to ring, really this phenomenon is because large, thick pieces of metal tend to have a much lower-Q resonance).

I'd be interested to try it out and measure it up though! Not all improvements in perceived sound have to necessarily measure as an improvement, but they will always measure differently.

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Re: Matt's system part 2

Postby Muser » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:54 am

AlexK and MattSPL
No intention to hijack the thread.
I've tried the Anti Vibration Magic. There's nothing on the website to persuade any thinking person the stuff could work. But, having tried it, and had my wife comment, without solicitation, that the video portion of the DVD player was much better is the first bit of anecdotal evidence I'd offer. Three other friends went through the "testing" of it, none of whom had skin in the game, and they all found it made easily noticed changes.
Whereas thick faceplates might offer a difference (I don't know this, I am just offering some surmise), the AVM is applied directly to parts that may vibrate, so it's physical location increases the possibility of making a difference. Secondly, the AVM isn't just paint, as I said before.
If you try it, I'd be interested in your experience.
And, if I was rude, I apologize, I wrote while working and wrote with my argumentative lawyer brain engaged.
Again, peace.
Larry
ATC SCM20-2A, Onkyo 885(a) preamp processor, YBA 1 Alpha preamp, Amazon Model 2 tt, Moerch DP6 arm and Dynavector XX2MkII cartridge, Oppo 105, Twisted Pear Audio Buffalo 32S DAC (balanced out) Kubala Sosna Expression cabling. Two 15" Acoustic Elegance subwoofers, powered by QSC RMX 2450 amplifier w/ minidsp equalization.

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Re: Matt's system part 2

Postby MattSPL » Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:59 pm

Hi Larry/Alex,

That's interesting. I wonder is the AVM reducing vibrations created by the music playing, or is it reducing the vibrations caused by the electricity going through the components?

I remember removing 2 Nordosst Vishnu power cords from my system a few years back. This was after listening to music the night before. I resumed the same cd the next day, but without the vishnu power cords in place and Clare said 'That sounds rubbish today, what did you do'? So it seems even people who don't know a change has been made can hear or see a difference.

Cheers
Matt
Sony BDP-S790 > Matrix Quattro Dac > Digidesign RM2's with SB Acoustics drivers > DIY Dayton Audio UM18-22 Sub

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Re: Matt's system part 2

Postby Muser » Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:50 am

Matt:
I can only speculate as I cannot for the life of me figure out how painting a fuse or a fancy fuse could possibly make a difference - pure fantasy if I hadn't heard it myself, at least as to painting the fuse. AVM directs painting to parts that self vibrate - read this, perhaps it helps :http://antivibrationmagic.ca/index.php?page=info.

I found it made a striking difference on the circuit board of my Twisted Pear Audio Buffalo 32 DAC, and the same for the power supplies. Imaging was more solid, the background was darker and it seemed like the background noise was lower. Certainly the picture quality was more film like, which is funny because I don't seem to be particularly picky about picture quality.

The character of Clare's comment are why long term reviews are the only ones that I feel I can count on for myself.

(short hijack) I'm going to build new cabinets for my subs, this time for a ported effort, but just to get performance closer to the FS of the driver. Waiting for my shoulder surgery to allow me to pick up heavy things. :-)

Cheers,
Larry
ATC SCM20-2A, Onkyo 885(a) preamp processor, YBA 1 Alpha preamp, Amazon Model 2 tt, Moerch DP6 arm and Dynavector XX2MkII cartridge, Oppo 105, Twisted Pear Audio Buffalo 32S DAC (balanced out) Kubala Sosna Expression cabling. Two 15" Acoustic Elegance subwoofers, powered by QSC RMX 2450 amplifier w/ minidsp equalization.

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Re: Matt's system part 2

Postby MattSPL » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:32 pm

Hi Larry,

When you painted the Dac circuit board, did you paint individual capacitors etc?

What's interesting about the AVM site you linked is that they seem to have a business of coating products, not just flogging bottles of the stuff. I wonder who their customers are?
Looking at some of their pictures of coated amplifiers, it would take a serious amount of paint to thoroughly coat your entire hifi.

Do you have acoustic wadding in your sub boxes? Proper acoustic fill(not pillow filling as this is hollow fibre and doesn't work properly) will make a big difference to a sub box to get you deeper bass.

I hope the shoulder gets better soon, and let us now how you get on with the subs.

Cheers
Matt
Sony BDP-S790 > Matrix Quattro Dac > Digidesign RM2's with SB Acoustics drivers > DIY Dayton Audio UM18-22 Sub

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Re: Matt's system part 2

Postby Muser » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:47 pm

Matt:
Rather than hijack this thread, I'll start another and respond to your comments there.
Larry
ATC SCM20-2A, Onkyo 885(a) preamp processor, YBA 1 Alpha preamp, Amazon Model 2 tt, Moerch DP6 arm and Dynavector XX2MkII cartridge, Oppo 105, Twisted Pear Audio Buffalo 32S DAC (balanced out) Kubala Sosna Expression cabling. Two 15" Acoustic Elegance subwoofers, powered by QSC RMX 2450 amplifier w/ minidsp equalization.

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Re: Matt's system part 2

Postby MattSPL » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:19 pm

Muser wrote:Matt:
Rather than hijack this thread, I'll start another and respond to your comments there.
Larry


Ok, no problem Larry :)
Sony BDP-S790 > Matrix Quattro Dac > Digidesign RM2's with SB Acoustics drivers > DIY Dayton Audio UM18-22 Sub

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Re: Matt's system part 2

Postby MattSPL » Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:56 pm

Here's a long overdue update to my system thread.

I have moved the room around after getting a corner sofa and mounted the TV above the fireplace.
As the fireplace was too high for my liking for mounting a TV above, I took the fireplace off the wall and did some surgery on it. This also allowed me to drill and run cables to reach the right hand speaker and sub as the Dac etc are all over on a shelf on the left.

Here's the fireplace just before I took it off the wall.
ImageUntitled by MattSPL, on Flickr

Here's the after picture.
ImageUntitled by MattSPL, on Flickr

We did all this to make the room bigger. The speakers aren't in an ideal position either side of the fireplace when it comes to bass, but its ok unless you crank it up. The big rug and curtains to the side of each speaker help though, and no coffee table between the speakers and seating position.
The shelf on the left holding all the equipment is a mess of cables that needs sorting too.

I'm thinking of making acoustic panels to put behind each speaker. I hope to make them the entire width of the alcove and upto the height of the shelf so they will fill the corners and should tame the bass.

Cheers
Matt
Sony BDP-S790 > Matrix Quattro Dac > Digidesign RM2's with SB Acoustics drivers > DIY Dayton Audio UM18-22 Sub

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Re: Matt's system part 2

Postby emgee » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:01 pm

Looking good Matt, love the fire :)
cheers
Mark

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Re: Matt's system part 2

Postby MattSPL » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:26 pm

Thanks Mark :)
Next job is to remove the Gas fire part(as we don't use it) and make it into a real fire. I've been planning to do this for years though and still haven't done it :lol:

Cheers
Matt
Sony BDP-S790 > Matrix Quattro Dac > Digidesign RM2's with SB Acoustics drivers > DIY Dayton Audio UM18-22 Sub

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Re: Matt's system part 2

Postby John Leddy » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:58 am

.
Hi Matt,

That AVM cack is suitably named; magic indeed! At $95.95 for a 20ml bottle I'm sure we can figure out exactly who this product is aimed at. By the overspray alone, those must be the most valuable spray booths in Canada! Cheap enough to spray on but valued at $95.95 for a 20ml bottle. They show more than 20ml wasted on the paper placed under speaker cable and rubbed off during application. They're kidding right?

Imagine being the only nob in the street to have a satellite dish coated in blue magic. How would you explain that one to your neighbour? All credibility instantly destroyed!

I laughed at the thought of a repair man trying test for faults and isolate a problem with all that muck painted over components and PCBs. Imagine trying to repair a dry joint! You'd need to be smoking one to consider putting that dung on perfectly ordinary components. They could use this stuff on the spacestation for all I care, but as far as I'm concerned, this product is being marketed in this manner to target a particular type of person.

Oh hold on, must just paint some of this on the end of a £1,000 tonearm and headshell... er no, I don't think so. $95.95 and guaranteed to instantly devalue your hi-fi components to absolute zilch.

Boffins in their garden sheds aside, domestic and professional quality components simply do not require this type of misplaced practice when used by the vast majority of normal folk. As far as electronics are concerned, all the work has been done, we just need to purchase and use perfectly adequate components as they are. There is no real need to start modifying well designed and manufactured devices possessing suitable quality to perform their function.

Rather than being side-tracked by red herrings of trivial importance, it may prove more worthwhile to concentrate on audible problems as experienced within recording and playback environments. As always, just my opinion.

All the best,

John.

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Re: Matt's system part 2

Postby Muser » Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:05 am

John Leddy wrote:
[quote]Boffins in their garden sheds aside, domestic and professional quality components simply do not require this type of misplaced practice when used by the vast majority of normal folk. As far as electronics are concerned, all the work has been done, we just need to purchase and use perfectly adequate components as they are. There is no real need to start modifying well designed and manufactured devices possessing suitable quality to perform their function./quote]

I engaged in an experiment that was primarily recreation plain and simple, if it hadn't occurred to you. I agree the pricing seemed outrageous, but surprisingly the AVM could be used on many components. After the fact I think it was good value. It appears you are unaware but the DAC I treated was a DAC I'd built. There was already no market for my DAC which is why I engaged in the experiment. And the $69 DVD player was ten years old. I had vague hopes it would give me an excuse to buy a new one.

You seem somewhat jolly and rather intelligent, but I'm puzzled by your comments. You have imagined a straw man to derogate (your term was "derogatory remarks" in a post elsewhere). If I'm mistaken that your critique is imagined, please point to the comment(s) that AVM was necessary, that a system was not adequate or any evidence arguing that application of AVM was the most valuable place to apply one's money and attention. I think you will find no evidence. Truth be told your footprint in the above isn't really very interesting to me, but it's a thread that runs through your comments.

[quote]we just need to purchase and use perfectly adequate components as they are./quote]

Tossing aside your Terry Gilliam "Brazil" world view, I am slightly curious about your participation in this "hobby." It would appear you buy a box, place it in your home, turn it on and leave it alone. If that satisfies you, I understand, even if I don't find satisfaction in that. I was experimenting and stated as such. I don't understand why are you here and what you want to contribute? If it's just to disparage, I can also understand that might be recreation for you, too, but it escapes me what your comment adds. Penny for your thoughts?

All the best

Larry
ATC SCM20-2A, Onkyo 885(a) preamp processor, YBA 1 Alpha preamp, Amazon Model 2 tt, Moerch DP6 arm and Dynavector XX2MkII cartridge, Oppo 105, Twisted Pear Audio Buffalo 32S DAC (balanced out) Kubala Sosna Expression cabling. Two 15" Acoustic Elegance subwoofers, powered by QSC RMX 2450 amplifier w/ minidsp equalization.

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Re: Matt's system part 2

Postby John Leddy » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:36 pm

Muser wrote:
John Leddy wrote:Boffins in their garden sheds aside, domestic and professional quality components simply do not require this type of misplaced practice when used by the vast majority of normal folk. As far as electronics are concerned, all the work has been done, we just need to purchase and use perfectly adequate components as they are. There is no real need to start modifying well designed and manufactured devices possessing suitable quality to perform their function.

I engaged in an experiment that was primarily recreation plain and simple, if it hadn't occurred to you. I agree the pricing seemed outrageous, but surprisingly the AVM could be used on many components. After the fact I think it was good value. It appears you are unaware but the DAC I treated was a DAC I'd built. There was already no market for my DAC which is why I engaged in the experiment. And the $69 DVD player was ten years old. I had vague hopes it would give me an excuse to buy a new one.

You seem somewhat jolly and rather intelligent, but I'm puzzled by your comments. You have imagined a straw man to derogate (your term was "derogatory remarks" in a post elsewhere). If I'm mistaken that your critique is imagined, please point to the comment(s) that AVM was necessary, that a system was not adequate or any evidence arguing that application of AVM was the most valuable place to apply one's money and attention. I think you will find no evidence. Truth be told your footprint in the above isn't really very interesting to me, but it's a thread that runs through your comments.

John Leddy wrote:we just need to purchase and use perfectly adequate components as they are.

Tossing aside your Terry Gilliam "Brazil" world view, I am slightly curious about your participation in this "hobby." It would appear you buy a box, place it in your home, turn it on and leave it alone. If that satisfies you, I understand, even if I don't find satisfaction in that. I was experimenting and stated as such. I don't understand why are you here and what you want to contribute? If it's just to disparage, I can also understand that might be recreation for you, too, but it escapes me what your comment adds. Penny for your thoughts?

All the best

Larry

It's interesting you chose to twist this thread into being about you, when it so obviously isn't and attacks the product's supplier in such a direct manner. That's an issue you need to address for yourself as I'm not qualified for the endeavour.

My initial reaction was to ignore your remarks but you chose to make them quite personal at the end there. Not that this bothers me in the slightest you understand, but for the benefit of others this type of passive manipulation of another's opinion needs to be exposed. While the reader mistakedly focuses their emotions on John being so rotten to Larry, your true ambition is for intellectual censorship. Straw man indeed, and slightly creepy in my opinion.

If my opinions are a little too close to the mark for you so be it. Whether they're accurate or not is another matter altogether, but they are my opinions and just as valid as another's. My opinions concerning the usefulness of this product and the behaviour of its supplier still stand; deal with it!

Here's an Idiot's Guide to my post:

Prices: http://antivibrationmagic.ca/index.php?page=purchase
John Leddy wrote:Hi Matt, That AVM cack is suitably named; magic indeed! At $95.95 for a 20ml bottle I'm sure we can figure out exactly who this product is aimed at.


Product information: http://antivibrationmagic.ca/index.php?page=info

Image
John Leddy wrote:By the overspray alone, those must be the most valuable spray booths in Canada! Cheap enough to spray on but valued at $95.95 for a 20ml bottle.


Image
Speaker cables: http://antivibrationmagic.ca/index.php? ... akerCables
John Leddy wrote:They show more than 20ml wasted on the paper placed under speaker cable and rubbed off during application. They're kidding right?


Image
Satellite dishes: http://antivibrationmagic.ca/index.php? ... liteDishes
John Leddy wrote:Imagine being the only nob in the street to have a satellite dish coated in blue magic. How would you explain that one to your neighbour? All credibility instantly destroyed!


Image
John Leddy wrote:I laughed at the thought of a repair man trying test for faults and isolate a problem with all that muck painted over components and PCBs.


Image
John Leddy wrote:Imagine trying to repair a dry joint! You'd need to be smoking one to consider putting that dung on perfectly ordinary components. They could use this stuff on the spacestation for all I care, but as far as I'm concerned, this product is being marketed in this manner to target a particular type of person.


Image
John Leddy wrote:Oh hold on, must just paint some of this on the end of a £1,000 tonearm and headshell... er no, I don't think so. $95.95 and guaranteed to instantly devalue your hi-fi components to absolute zilch.


Opinion:
John Leddy wrote:Boffins in their garden sheds aside, domestic and professional quality components simply do not require this type of misplaced practice when used by the vast majority of normal folk. As far as electronics are concerned, all the work has been done, we just need to purchase and use perfectly adequate components as they are. There is no real need to start modifying well designed and manufactured devices possessing suitable quality to perform their function.


Further thought on the matter:
John Leddy wrote:Rather than being side-tracked by red herrings of trivial importance, it may prove more worthwhile to concentrate on audible problems as experienced within recording and playback environments.


As about as clear as it gets:
John Leddy wrote:As always, just my opinion.

All the best,

John.


POST EDITED - EASE UP PLEASE

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Re: Matt's system part 2

Postby darrenyeats » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:39 pm

John Leddy wrote:If my opinions are a little too close to the mark for you so be it. Whether they're accurate or not is another matter altogether, but they are my opinions and just as valid as another's.

I like these words.

John, it's actually quite hard to understand where people are coming from on the internet, what is their background, their motivation and what life has thrown at them or, indeed, is throwing at them. I think the style of your recent posts has been on the robust end of the spectrum. If you spend any time here, I think you'll find them extremely robust compared to the norm for ATC forum. Of course allegations of over-sensitivity can be made ... I'm just saying how I rate these things.

Welcome BTW ...
Darren

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