Adding a sub to the stereo, question

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Adding a sub to the stereo, question

Postby lieberung » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:37 pm

I have read several places that a quality sub could give new dimension to my setup with ATC scm50aslt.
I'm considering saving up for a c4 sub later on, but I'm not sure how I to connect this to my Preamp, an Audio-gd Master 1.
There is no sub out, only a pair of XLR (in use), RCA and ACSS (ACSS is compatible with Krell Cast).

Pictures of back plate of pre amp and C4 below. There is no RCA in on the C4 and no XLR out, and naturally I use the XLR on the preamp to the speakers today.

Can I use XLR Y cables to split signals from preamp to both sub and speakers or is there a better solution?

Image
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Speakers: ATC SCM50 ASLT, Source: PC, fully specced Empirical Audio Off-ramp 5 w/Dynamo psu, DAC: Audio-GD Master 7, Preamp: Audio-GD Master 1, CDP: Audiolab CDQ8200

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Re: Adding a sub to the stereo, question

Postby Oldboy » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:36 pm

Hi from your pics you have 2 XLR outs for each side so just use one of those to the Sub. You have a RCA out as well so could use a Cardas RCA to XLR adapter to feed your RCA signal to the XLR in on the Sub.http://www.cardas.com/adaptors.php
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Re: Adding a sub to the stereo, question

Postby darrenyeats » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:19 am

I prefer my 50s without a sub. If I had a bigger room I think I'd still go 100s/150s rather than adding sub.

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Re: Adding a sub to the stereo, question

Postby linger63 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:29 am

Lieberung,

Do you feel that your system is lacking bass?

If really not............don't do anything.......who cares what you read!!!!.... :lol:

If really yes............then try auditioning one and see how it goes.


BTW.......Oldboy" has answered your question.............but I agree with "darrenyeats"!!!!

Anyway........If you MUST have sub for stereo........definitely better off with TWO.

And TWO equals megabucks!!!...........plus hard to integrate sub (s) well.........better off upsizing instead IMHO.

Unless for HT..........MUST have a good sub or two for great HT!!!!

Good Luck

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Re: Adding a sub to the stereo, question

Postby Alexk » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:21 pm

In my experience, the addition of stereo subs can greatly improve perceived depth and width of the soundstage. Not sure why, but that seems to be the case.

TBH I even find this during the mastering stage - some mastering engineers I've worked with will put in a steep high-pass filter at say 30 or 35 Hz, not an issue at all on some mixes, but on others it can really alter the spacial perception.


And RE the original question, in my experience XLR Y-split cables work absolutely fine with electronically balanced high-impedance ratio signals, which is what we're dealing with here.

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Re: Adding a sub to the stereo, question

Postby lieberung » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:53 pm

Thanks for your replies. It's not that I miss bass, it's more curiousity. The ATC 50 bass is very good but not as prominent as my previous speakers Tannoy DC10t. I dont' really have space for sub or bigger speakers atm, but we plan find a larger home..
Speakers: ATC SCM50 ASLT, Source: PC, fully specced Empirical Audio Off-ramp 5 w/Dynamo psu, DAC: Audio-GD Master 7, Preamp: Audio-GD Master 1, CDP: Audiolab CDQ8200

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Re: Adding a sub to the stereo, question

Postby MattSPL » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:39 pm

lieberung wrote:Thanks for your replies. It's not that I miss bass, it's more curiousity. The ATC 50 bass is very good but not as prominent as my previous speakers Tannoy DC10t. I dont' really have space for sub or bigger speakers atm, but we plan find a larger home..


Most 'Hifi' speakers tend to have a more prominent bass, some more than others. ATC's on the other hand favour neutrality. The bass is there, but as it's more balanced with the rest of the frequency range, it can sometimes leave you wanting more, especially if your used to other speakers. I had scm50's before and added a sub to great effect. I can recommend JL Audio Fathom subs to partner with ATC.

Cheers
Matt
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Re: Adding a sub to the stereo, question

Postby studioman » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:55 pm

Oldboy wrote:Hi from your pics you have 2 XLR outs for each side so just use one of those to the Sub. You have a RCA out as well so could use a Cardas RCA to XLR adapter to feed your RCA signal to the XLR in on the Sub.http://www.cardas.com/adaptors.php


Check the manual and specs for this preamp. From checking it myself, it seems that there is only ONE pair of XLR outputs, not two. The other pair (according to the manual) of (similar appearance but not the same as XLR) output sockets are ACSS, which are specifically intended for Krell CAST power amps. There is also a set of RCA (phono) outputs.
Last edited by studioman on Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Adding a sub to the stereo, question

Postby linger63 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:14 am

error

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Re: Adding a sub to the stereo, question

Postby AlmaataKZ » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:39 am

to the OP

there are a number of ways to connect the C4 sub with your preamp:
1. y-splitter XLR-to-2XLR
2. if your pre amp has both the XLR out and the RCA out active at the same time and volume controlled, then you can use the RCA out to connect the sub. Either use an XLR to RCA cable or XLR-XLR cable with an XLR-RCA adapter at the end

As to 'is it worth adding a sub (or two)' discussion, it depends what you want. the 50s are good on their own but a sub will certainly add both bass depth and bass volume to the bottom end. the bass volume will also be adjustable as the sub has its own level control.

two subs will be better than one (not just because of higher bass volume (SPL) achievable, but mainly because you can achieve a more even bass response around the room).

the trick is not to follow the habit so easily acquired with poor speakers - getting used to bloated boomy bass and then seeking it after switching to capable actives.
Try to set up the system for clean bass, i.e. not over emphasised. In my experience, you start with a higher setting of the level of the sub and end up dialling it down as you start to notice and appreciate clean bass.
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Re: Adding a sub to the stereo, question

Postby lieberung » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:51 pm

Thanks again for all feedback, much appreciated. It was much as I thought but it's good to get experienced and well educated wisdom. I'm not sure if the RCA are active simultaneously with the XLR and ACSS outputs, but this I can confer with audio-gd.
The gain output is a bit high from the preamp so often for regular usage I use balanced Rothwell attenuators on the speakers to get more granularity on lower volume. I have seen a video on YouTube testing xlr y between two mics and a recorder/amplifier and using both mics simultaneously reduced the voltage and thus the volume decreased. Thus using XLR Y to split the outbound signal to speakers and sub could eliminate the need for attenuators, which is a good thing.
Speakers: ATC SCM50 ASLT, Source: PC, fully specced Empirical Audio Off-ramp 5 w/Dynamo psu, DAC: Audio-GD Master 7, Preamp: Audio-GD Master 1, CDP: Audiolab CDQ8200

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Re: Adding a sub to the stereo, question

Postby ledcam » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:18 pm

It really does seem to be a topic which generates strong preferences. I think an audition is crucial. For my part I wouldn't dream of not having a sub in the system and the 100 SEs are not bass shy. That said for organ music the sub opens up so much more in the recording. Oddly enough it opens up music in general even where there is no low energy stuff to reproduce.

Have fun exploring.
dCS Rossini dac and clock : Audiocom Signature Oppo 103 : ATC SCA2 : ATC 100SE: Paradigm Sub 2 : Some Vertex boxes.

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Re: Adding a sub to the stereo, question

Postby Alexk » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:11 pm

lieberung wrote:Thanks again for all feedback, much appreciated. It was much as I thought but it's good to get experienced and well educated wisdom. I'm not sure if the RCA are active simultaneously with the XLR and ACSS outputs, but this I can confer with audio-gd.
The gain output is a bit high from the preamp so often for regular usage I use balanced Rothwell attenuators on the speakers to get more granularity on lower volume. I have seen a video on YouTube testing xlr y between two mics and a recorder/amplifier and using both mics simultaneously reduced the voltage and thus the volume decreased. Thus using XLR Y to split the outbound signal to speakers and sub could eliminate the need for attenuators, which is a good thing.



Actually in this scenario there will be hardly any/no level drop, these are parallel circuits and a modern active line-output stage will be able to handle the change in impedance with no issues...

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Re: Adding a sub to the stereo, question

Postby MattSPL » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:07 pm

ledcam wrote:It really does seem to be a topic which generates strong preferences. I think an audition is crucial. For my part I wouldn't dream of not having a sub in the system and the 100 SEs are not bass shy. That said for organ music the sub opens up so much more in the recording. Oddly enough it opens up music in general even where there is no low energy stuff to reproduce.

Have fun exploring.


Your right, and a great choice of sub you made :)
Did you ever consider adding a second?
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Re: Adding a sub to the stereo, question

Postby ledcam » Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:40 pm

We're very happy with it. Since buying the price for the Sub 2 seems to have doubled which is a good argument for just having one :D

We had two B&W 850s at one point a few years ago. I know two subs are often recommended but in truth I didn't notice a significant detriment when we reverted to one. Possibly the room dimensions. We didn't find the B&W easy to tune to the room.

The Paradigm is such a different beastie altogether. Much more adaptable and the kit which comes with it allows you to custom fit it to your room. A very impressive performer. Our current listening room wouldn't call for two subs but maybe in a larger room. The dealer we bought from has two other clients with two Sub 2s - one guy lives in a flat so no idea how his neighbours feel about that. We find particularly when playing a bluray that quite often things on the walls move about. It really goes low - love it. Without a doubt the best sub we have ever owned.
dCS Rossini dac and clock : Audiocom Signature Oppo 103 : ATC SCA2 : ATC 100SE: Paradigm Sub 2 : Some Vertex boxes.

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