New tweeter or new speaker?

ATC & other manufacturers design parameters, technical queries etc
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:40 am
Location: Stroud

New tweeter or new speaker?

Postby Bertie » Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:01 am

Hi gang

I have discovered that my recapped 1988 SCM50A's in pristine Yew are rolling off at about 13,000Hz. The original tweeter is an Audax which is built into the baffle, so tricky to replace. ATC say that they can probably redrill the baffle to accept the standard faceplate, but that the filters in my Mk 1 amps are not ideal for the new tweeter. They say it should be Ok though. They reckon the Mk 1 50A remains a peach btw.

My system sounds awesome, especially with my new C6, but I suspect I am losing some shimmer and air. Having said that, I have always hated sibilance and listen to all kinds of old rubbish thru digital sources ...via EAR tube pre....so maybes this roll off is actually doing me a favour?? I am also the wrong side of 45 so might not be hearing much up there anyway!

I'm wondering if I might be able to keep my 50A's going forever, as ATC are just up the road, and in that context the new tweeters could be a bargain against a newer pair of speakers. Full range. No ferrofluid to dry out... Or am I being a fool!?

Will the highest frequencies matter?

Will my speakers Last another 25 years?

Will the imperfect crossover be noticeable?

Wilmslow thought it easy to find a matched tweeter before the baffle issue incidentally.

Thanks for any wisdom..

Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:30 pm

Re: New tweeter or new speaker?

Postby linger63 » Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:44 am

Bertie wrote:Hi gang

I have discovered that my recapped 1988 SCM50A's in pristine Yew are rolling off at about 13,000Hz. The original tweeter is an Audax which is built into the baffle, so tricky to replace. ATC say that they can probably redrill the baffle to accept the standard faceplate, but that the filters in my Mk 1 amps are not ideal for the new tweeter. They say it should be Ok though. They reckon the Mk 1 50A remains a peach btw.

My system sounds awesome, especially with my new C6, but I suspect I am losing some shimmer and air. Having said that, I have always hated sibilance and listen to all kinds of old rubbish thru digital sources ...via EAR tube pre....so maybes this roll off is actually doing me a favour?? I am also the wrong side of 45 so might not be hearing much up there anyway!

I'm wondering if I might be able to keep my 50A's going forever, as ATC are just up the road, and in that context the new tweeters could be a bargain against a newer pair of speakers. Full range. No ferrofluid to dry out... Or am I being a fool!?

Will the highest frequencies matter?

Will my speakers Last another 25 years?

Will the imperfect crossover be noticeable?



Wilmslow thought it easy to find a matched tweeter before the baffle issue incidentally.

Thanks for any wisdom..




Hi Bertie,


Well I reckon if you can spring for a C6 getting the new ATC tweeters is pocket change!!! ;)

I would go for it if I was you and why not get them FULLY serviced and "SL" specced ( BIG improvement) while you are at it? 8-)

Then you are good for ANOTHER 25 years!!! :D


Cheers

Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Herefordshire

Re: New tweeter or new speaker?

Postby Flatovercrest » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:05 am

I have had my 20 year old 50A`s brought up to ASL spec which includes the ATC tweeter. I do have the Mk2 amp packs though.

Even if you had to change your amp pack, it would be less cost than some new speakers.

The upgrade is well worth doing.
Alex.

ATC SCM50ASL`s, ATC SCA2 Preamp, Aune CD Pro transport kit, DDDAC 16 stack Dac, Lots of room treatment.

Posts: 267
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 8:20 am

Re: New tweeter or new speaker?

Postby Alexk » Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:14 pm

The upgrade will be well worth it. Most sibilant energy lies around 8 KHz anyway, so you won't be 'gaining' anything by rolling off above 13 KHz. My old VIFA tweeters were the same, and switching to the new tweeters has been a huuuuuge upgrade...

User avatar
Posts: 800
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:27 pm

Re: New tweeter or new speaker?

Postby Shadorne » Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:43 am

Bertie,

You are best to sell the existing speakers and buy new or nearly new. They are Mk1 without SL drivers. I don't think it makes sense to upgrade to the new tweeter by drilling holes as you still have the old style woofer. Sell the existing speakers in original excellent condition (re-capped) and buy new or relatively new (if you are willing to wait a couple more years you might find a used ATC 50ASL with the new tweeters)

Two cents....

I agree the upgrade will be worth it but your speakers are original and worth more than or as much as a modified one-off "Frankenspeaker"
"ATC. Always The Champion. I will not record without them. The best studio monitors. Period." ~ Lenny Kravitz

Benchmark DAC3, 2 x ATC SCM EL150ASL, 1 ATC SCM 0.1/15, 2 x Genelec 8020, Roland TD-30 Drums, Pearl Ref Acoustic Kit, Ludwig brass & Pearl Ref snares, Gibson LP Supreme, Fender Precision Bass

Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:40 am
Location: Stroud

Re: New tweeter or new speaker?

Postby Bertie » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:54 am

Thanks for the comments chaps. The divided opinion reflects my state of mind! I have noted from kdsl2's thread that the new atc tweeter doesn't measure above 12,000Hz which is somewhat reassuring. Mine do measure up to 20,000Hz (-12dB) but begin to roll off at 13,000, slightly more so than my other speakers (Mission and Miller & Kreisel) which have silk dome vifas. I can't hear anything above 14KHz. I went back to Ben Lilly and he reckons the tweeter is still close to optimal, and basically agrees with you, Shadorne, that the integration with the amps and especially the crossovers i.e. the soft dome is more important than frequency extension.

Conclusion: If I am going to treat myself to an upgrade it makes more sense to buy a nearly new pair. Tricky call as it would be a big outlay for a modest gain in sound quality but then my experience with 50A's indicates they will be more or less guaranteed to still sound great in 25 years' time. I guess this is what they call a nice problem to have :)

Special award for use of the word "Frankenspeaker" btw ;)

Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:40 am
Location: Stroud

Re: New tweeter or new speaker?

Postby Bertie » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:38 am

Update to this thread: I now have a pair of 2012 SCM100ASLs. There is a big difference from the Mk1 50As. I was surprised by just how great and immediately obvious the improvement is. Only the midrange bears comparison but transparency is still not in the same league. The tweeters on the old 50s were definitely letting them down, as were the Mk1 amp packs. It seems Mk 2 onward is the way to go as the upgrade paths are all open then, whereas the oldest 50As are stuck with their limitations. Sibilance is no worse with the newish speakers either.

Thanks for the advice everyone it steered me to the right decision :)

User avatar
Posts: 6468
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:46 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: New tweeter or new speaker?

Postby MattSPL » Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:53 pm

Congratulations on the new speakers :D Good move. Bigger is better when it comes to speakers(IMO) :D
Sony BDP-S790 > Matrix Quattro Dac > Digidesign RM2's with SB Acoustics drivers > DIY Dayton Audio UM18-22 Sub

Posts: 165
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:57 pm
Location: Slovenia

Re: New tweeter or new speaker?

Postby Zulef » Sun May 07, 2017 9:44 pm

Hello
I recently read a this review:
http://www.techradar.com/reviews/audio- ... 144/review
There's one notably interesting effect though, which is that vocal recordings on the 'hissy' side seem unusually so with the SCM16A.

I have much older atcs, but it seems the problem persists despite new tweeters.

Posts: 267
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 8:20 am

Re: New tweeter or new speaker?

Postby Alexk » Mon May 08, 2017 8:27 am

Zulef wrote:Hello
I recently read a this review:
http://www.techradar.com/reviews/audio- ... 144/review
There's one notably interesting effect though, which is that vocal recordings on the 'hissy' side seem unusually so with the SCM16A.

I have much older atcs, but it seems the problem persists despite new tweeters.


These are the older SCM16 which use a completely different tweeter...

Posts: 165
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:57 pm
Location: Slovenia

Re: New tweeter or new speaker?

Postby Zulef » Mon May 08, 2017 11:29 am

You are right. I see they use exactly the same tweeter I have. Maybe it is vifa. I see it is quite an old review. I though these were new. Well this hiss is irritating. Every sss is exagerated. I thought it is just me that hears this.

Posts: 413
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:01 pm
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA

Re: New tweeter or new speaker?

Postby Brad Lunde » Tue May 23, 2017 3:39 pm

Zulef wrote:You are right. I see they use exactly the same tweeter I have. Maybe it is vifa. I see it is quite an old review. I though these were new. Well this hiss is irritating. Every sss is exagerated. I thought it is just me that hears this.


Two thoughts: one, your electronics could be exaggerating this. Two, the source might actually have sibilance in it, you are hearing it correctly, its an error somewhere in the recording or production phase. This is why ATC is so popular in recording and mastering, you hear these type of things. Someone may have missed the error because they were using speakers with poor high end so they did not hear it or, some other production error caused it and it was missed on QC.

Good example of above: Dianna Krall, Live in Paris, has the most annoying sibilance. You can hear it plain as day, and if you can't, your system is not revealing the truth. Dianna has a "sssy" voice anyway, but in this record, it is dramatically emphasized. Its a lovely music record but the esses everywhere are distracting.

With ATC, you can hear errors as well as the good stuff.

Brad
Brad Lunde
Lone Mountain Audio, part of TransAudio Group
ATC Importers USA

Return to Technical area

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests