ATC curved SCM40 Active

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Re: ATC curved SCM40 Active

Postby Alexk » Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:41 pm

Zulef wrote:It's 3000 GBP. Yes I forgot, for a business investing in HQ, reliable equipment, that is something else ... I doubt studios will buy 40s.
As for the amp, you can check it out yourselves by comparing a few integrated amps. Go and demo something like Electrocompaniet, some english brands... maybe even a 10 year old Gryphon. I gurantee you'll hear what's what. Sounds better than amps twice the price, come on :lol:


I see your point, but the ATC amps run in circles around Electrocompaniet if you're interested in something honest and transparent. I haven't heard any Gryphon but I'd imagine it's the same thing. I think you're probably comparing apples and oranges!

If you want something with some colour and vibe then I think you'd definitely find a lot of amps out there which will tick more boxes for you, possibly for quite a lot less than the ATC amps!

Also regardless of how excellent your amplifier is, if there's a passive crossover between it and the drivers, it's performance is always handicapped in comparison to an active version of the same speaker...

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Re: ATC curved SCM40 Active

Postby fidelityaudio » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:09 pm

Alexk

I agree, personally I don't like any Electrocompaniet equipment as I do not think the audio , circuit design or component quality is that great.
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Marantz SA-11S2 hugely moddified, ATC CA2 moddified, ATC SCM-40A, ATC C3C Center, ATC P1 Center amp, Marantz AV8801

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Re: ATC curved SCM40 Active

Postby Zulef » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:06 pm

Electrocompaniet is on completely different side of Atc. Wheather you like it or not it can teach Atc many things. No it cannot match atcs dynamics. In terms of noise heh... In terms of 3D staging it is so much better it is beyond any word. Yes it is more coloured. However in direct comparison to EC, Atc integrated sounds noisy, coarse, mechanical, veiled. I just mentioned EC because of huge difference between them. You can try something in between like Musical fidelity or whatever... It is simply not true that atc amps perform at twice their price. P1 costs 1900 and you can get a used one for 1000 any time. It just isn't good. When things get active it might not be noticable but for passive speakers you can do much better than atc amplification. And it isn't very difficult. It's not adding colour it is about lowering noise.

I've been to the presentation of Atc scm 19, cdpre and p1 from atc. Ben Lilly was also there. This combination was terrible, sorry but it is true. It was so harsh and unlistenable. Sibilance and sharp HF, maybe it was cdp... I don't know. While I like atc speakers very much, I know amps are not very good. Anyway It would be a miracle if such a small company would be the best in every possible area. I think speakers are where they shine.

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Re: ATC curved SCM40 Active

Postby markvh1 » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:17 pm

Zulef wrote:Electrocompaniet is on completely different side of Atc. Wheather you like it or not it can teach Atc many things. No it cannot match atcs dynamics. In terms of noise heh... In terms of 3D staging it is so much better it is beyond any word. Yes it is more coloured. However in direct comparison to EC, Atc integrated sounds noisy, coarse, mechanical, veiled. I just mentioned EC because of huge difference between them. You can try something in between like Musical fidelity or whatever... It is simply not true that atc amps perform at twice their price. P1 costs 1900 and you can get a used one for 1000 any time. It just isn't good. When things get active it might not be noticable but for passive speakers you can do much better than atc amplification. And it isn't very difficult. It's not adding colour it is about lowering noise.

I've been to the presentation of Atc scm 19, cdpre and p1 from atc. Ben Lilly was also there. This combination was terrible, sorry but it is true. It was so harsh and unlistenable. Sibilance and sharp HF, maybe it was cdp... I don't know. While I like atc speakers very much, I know amps are not very good. Anyway It would be a miracle if such a small company would be the best in every possible area. I think speakers are where they shine.


So what is a great pre amp to work with ATC SCM50 Actives then?
HiFi: Preamp ATC CDA2, ATC SCM50 ASLT, Cyrus Stream X Signature, Chord QBD76 DAC, Sonos ZP90. Monitor Audio GSW-12 Subwoofer. iPad 2. WD NAS.
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Re: ATC curved SCM40 Active

Postby Zulef » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:55 pm

Try resolution audio cantata dac pre, or used ra opus 21 if it's flexible enough for you. My vote would go for them. Its probably easy to get home demo in the uk.

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Re: ATC curved SCM40 Active

Postby Alexk » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:18 am

Zulef wrote:Electrocompaniet is on completely different side of Atc. Wheather you like it or not it can teach Atc many things. No it cannot match atcs dynamics. In terms of noise heh... In terms of 3D staging it is so much better it is beyond any word. Yes it is more coloured. However in direct comparison to EC, Atc integrated sounds noisy, coarse, mechanical, veiled. I just mentioned EC because of huge difference between them. You can try something in between like Musical fidelity or whatever... It is simply not true that atc amps perform at twice their price. P1 costs 1900 and you can get a used one for 1000 any time. It just isn't good. When things get active it might not be noticable but for passive speakers you can do much better than atc amplification. And it isn't very difficult. It's not adding colour it is about lowering noise.


I've never been to a mastering studio using Electrocompaniet amps or musical fidelity etc, but plenty using ATC actives.

I do not mean this to the discredit of these other amplifier brands. They have decided on an amplifier with a specific set of performance goals and achieved it - the same goes with Pass Labs.

Transparency is however a quantifiable and measurable aspect of an electronic component's performance, and most of these other amplifiers measure significantly higher harmonic distortion and noise than ATC, Bryston etc... If transparency is the goal, you cannot ignore the measurements.

In the audiophile world, often an amplifier, DAC or other component with higher levels of colouration or is considered 'superior' than a truly 'transparent' component. I think 'transparency' is a difficult thing to hear. Often I hear talk of hearing reverb tails etc... the reality is a colouration in an amplifier or component can 'bring up' low level details sometimes (and equally mask others).

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Re: ATC curved SCM40 Active

Postby fidelityaudio » Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:13 pm

I would also say with reference to the ATC setup heard the CDP is definately a weak link. I find it to be too stark in presentation (due to minimal capacitance on certain voltage rails) and the ATC amps and speakers will reveal this. Listen to the same setup with a different source (warm sounding) and you will have warm sound coming through.
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http://www.fidelitysoundandvision.co.uk/

http://www.fidelityaudio.co.uk/

Marantz SA-11S2 hugely moddified, ATC CA2 moddified, ATC SCM-40A, ATC C3C Center, ATC P1 Center amp, Marantz AV8801

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Re: ATC curved SCM40 Active

Postby Shadorne » Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:54 pm

Zulef wrote:Electrocompaniet is on completely different side of Atc. Wheather you like it or not it can teach Atc many things. No it cannot match atcs dynamics. In terms of noise heh... In terms of 3D staging it is so much better it is beyond any word. Yes it is more coloured. However in direct comparison to EC, Atc integrated sounds noisy, coarse, mechanical, veiled. I just mentioned EC because of huge difference between them. You can try something in between like Musical fidelity or whatever... It is simply not true that atc amps perform at twice their price. P1 costs 1900 and you can get a used one for 1000 any time. It just isn't good. When things get active it might not be noticable but for passive speakers you can do much better than atc amplification. And it isn't very difficult. It's not adding colour it is about lowering noise.

I've been to the presentation of Atc scm 19, cdpre and p1 from atc. Ben Lilly was also there. This combination was terrible, sorry but it is true. It was so harsh and unlistenable. Sibilance and sharp HF, maybe it was cdp... I don't know. While I like atc speakers very much, I know amps are not very good. Anyway It would be a miracle if such a small company would be the best in every possible area. I think speakers are where they shine.


ATC are all about transparency. They are like a precision tool with unflattering neutrality.There are many amplifier options that have presentations which can enhance the sound. Horses for courses. Tubes sound great for the warmth & richness they introduce to the sound. Here I think better is all down to the goal of the listener.

I agree that speakers are where ATC are clearly in another league. There are multiple options for extremely good amplifiers but few choices when it comes to exceptionally good speakers.
"ATC. Always The Champion. I will not record without them. The best studio monitors. Period." ~ Lenny Kravitz

Benchmark DAC3, 2 x ATC SCM EL150ASL, 1 ATC SCM 0.1/15, 2 x Genelec 8020, Roland TD-30 Drums, Pearl Ref Acoustic Kit, Ludwig brass & Pearl Ref snares, Gibson LP Supreme, Fender Precision Bass

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Re: ATC curved SCM40 Active

Postby Alexk » Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:32 pm

Shadorne wrote:
ATC are all about transparency. They are like a precision tool with unflattering neutrality.There are many amplifier options that have presentations which can enhance the sound. Horses for courses. Tubes sound great for the warmth & richness they introduce to the sound. Here I think better is all down to the goal of the listener.

I agree that speakers are where ATC are clearly in another league. There are multiple options for extremely good amplifiers but few choices when it comes to exceptionally good speakers.


Absolutely!

If it's any consolation to Zulef's view on Electrocompaniet amplifiers - I'm considering building a valve phono stage to use with my ATC setup - how incredibly un-precision-tool is that? I've heard a valve phono stage which is changing the sound in a way I loved. That's the same as choosing amplifier A over amplifier B because amplifier A is colouring or changing the sound in a way you prefer.

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Re: ATC curved SCM40 Active

Postby Zulef » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:01 pm

I do not agree with you guys. It seems to me that many are talking about certain products without even taking time to listen to them first.
I'm not talking about valves. I hate valves and intentionally coloring sound, adding distortion... It is difficult to have a conversation though, if everyone is repeating PR statements from Atc. We are neutral...., bla bla bla.
If you have ears, go and listen. Anybody who will have a demo will be surprised.

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Re: ATC curved SCM40 Active

Postby Alexk » Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:54 pm

I've heard ATC and Electrocompaniet amps. Not with the same speakers admittedly, but every setup I've heard Electrocompaniet in has had a consistent colour. Same with Chord. Same with Pass Labs. Same with Parasound. Same with Naim. All of these amplifiers fall into the 'coloured' category' for me in different ways. There are measurements abounding on the internet for various models from most of these brands which would support this.

Bryston, Hypex, Audiolab etc... are all extremely honest, linear and low THD amplifiers, as are ATC's amplifiers.

There is a reason you will find some of these amps in studios and not others.

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Re: ATC curved SCM40 Active

Postby darrenyeats » Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:15 pm

ATC users are a skeptical demographic. It's part of the territory but I feel it's a pity. I think my 50s (and DAC-pre) have been quite responsive to tweaks over the last two years, some related to source set up and some aimed at improving mains power. This could explain some of the differences in experience.

I am amazed at listening to some tracks I haven't heard for a couple of years. The equipment is exactly the same, it's just the source (DAC1) is configured differently and mains is dealt with better now (it's mostly putting some thought into it, not money, I've spent about £80 tops on mains stuff compared to £1.5-2k on acoustics). But the sound is a few rungs up from before.

Some people just don't want to hear it, and to be honest that was me three years ago when I bought my DAC1 and 50s. I wasted a year or two blaming my room and blaming recordings even after I put all the (very essential) acoustic stuff in but there was more to come by thinking about other things.

Just a simple example, I found the wall sockets in my new build house were physically grimy. A plastic dud socket came out with blackened pins, it was amazing! Cleaning the inside of the sockets with contact cleaner* changed the sound ... some people say this sort of thing doesn't make a difference, but how can it not? Two pieces of metal have to touch, it'd be preposterous to accept this contact dirt anywhere else in the audio chain, in power supplies, in the contacts in the amp etc, but because it is "mains" and involves doing a bit of work people would rather just stick their head in the sand and be "skeptical" about it. It's ridiculous if you think about it. I found even new extension strips sockets had dirt in them. It's worth being thorough and methodical first and "spending money to solve things" second.

*Always switch off at the consumer unit/fuse board before touching mains.

PS: In case anyone cares ...
My mains tips: http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/show ... tcount=126
If you have a DAC1: http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/show ... p?t=137152
Last edited by darrenyeats on Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:51 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: ATC curved SCM40 Active

Postby Zulef » Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:29 pm

Alexk wrote:I've heard ATC and Electrocompaniet amps. Not with the same speakers admittedly, but every setup I've heard Electrocompaniet in has had a consistent colour. Same with Chord. Same with Pass Labs. Same with Parasound. Same with Naim. All of these amplifiers fall into the 'coloured' category' for me in different ways. There are measurements abounding on the internet for various models from most of these brands which would support this.

Bryston, Hypex, Audiolab etc... are all extremely honest, linear and low THD amplifiers, as are ATC's amplifiers.

There is a reason you will find some of these amps in studios and not others.


If you want to compare amps you should do it on the same system. Believe me even the most linear studio speakers are 100 times more coloured than any transistor amp.

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Re: ATC curved SCM40 Active

Postby Brad Lunde » Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:18 pm

darrenyeats wrote:<SNIP>

I am amazed at listening to some tracks I haven't heard for a couple of years. The equipment is exactly the same, it's just the source (DAC1) is configured differently and mains is dealt with better now (it's mostly putting some thought into it, not money, I've spent about £80 tops on mains stuff compared to £1.5-2k on acoustics). But the sound is a few rungs up from before.

<SNIP>



Darren
I think your comment about acoustics is the most important comment about coloration. The room is always the #1 source of color, far beyond the amplifiers, cables, the transport, the preamp. We ALL (studio or home) hear only the sum result of the room with the ATCs inside being changed by the room, each room different than the next. Trying to work on your room, where the speakers are placed, understand what is happening in the interaction-all these things make all the difference.
Brad
Brad Lunde
Lone Mountain Audio, part of TransAudio Group
ATC Importers USA

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Re: ATC curved SCM40 Active

Postby darrenyeats » Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:55 pm

Brad Lunde wrote:The room is always the #1 source of color, far beyond the amplifiers, cables, the transport, the preamp.

Yes Brad, I think you're right. Acoustics is "the elephant in the room" (ha!) and I agree people should spend more of their thought, time and money on that than the other things.

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