ATC scm7s & 11s on-wall monitors

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Re: ATC scm7s & 11s on-wall monitors

Postby hifi-av » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:03 pm

thought that the 50 would be more expensive, bigger drivers etc

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Re: ATC scm7s & 11s on-wall monitors

Postby BenL » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:41 pm

If they were a normal production unit that would have to be right, but you'd have to pay a premium for a custom unit. The current cabinet may not be suitable for a passive version. But worth an enquiry to know how the prices would compare. I assume you don't want a c3c because of the driver mismatch so it would be nice to know the cost of getting a centre with matching drivers.
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Re: ATC scm7s & 11s on-wall monitors

Postby Brad Lunde » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:56 pm

hifi-av wrote:Are these still available?

I am looking to add to my system, i have 40's for the left and right, am thinking of a 50clasic (passive) for centre, with 7s or 11s for rear and side.

not convinced that a c3 is the right centre.

if the 7s and 11s are still out there, does anyone know a uptodate guide price?

thanks


I use the C1C for a center with my 40s. Due to the small drivers, I expected the speaker to be bright. I was wrong-they are very warm with a much better/fuller midrange than I expected. I do not miss low end in the center. Since Movies traditionally put dialogue in the center, this turned out perfectly for my rig, as I switch to stereo with music.

And I would think 11's would be ideal to go with 40s for surround; I use some 19's but it is overkill for sure. SO little content in the rear channels and so much of sound effects ( ie. not real) that if you don't need SPL the smaller speaker is fine.

I think a C1C and 20 tower passives rear would be the ideal match visually with the 40's in a hi fi room-I know its what my wife would prefer over my black custom 19's rear's on big black stands.

Oh and the on wall/in wall -they are rough boxes as many [custom installers] will flush mount them and cover them with a screen, paint them black and make them disappear. ATC built a 3 way version of these with a larger woofer for a Dolby install we sold in the Bay Area.... a 21 channel system with 150's LCR!

Brad
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Re: ATC scm7s & 11s on-wall monitors

Postby Muser » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:38 pm

Brad Lunde wrote:
I use the C1C for a center with my 40s. Due to the small drivers, I expected the speaker to be bright. I was wrong-they are very warm with a much better/fuller midrange than I expected. I do not miss low end in the center. Since Movies traditionally put dialogue in the center, this turned out perfectly for my rig, as I switch to stereo with music.


I can see how the C1C would match well with 40s given they are both passive designs. How do you think a passive center channel would sound with active speakers? Were my wallet and commitments otherwise, I'd definitely choose the C3CA over the C3C or the C1C as it seems there's a difference in sound between the passive and active speakers. Unfortunately, the C3CA is three times the cost of the C3C and eight times the cost of the C1C, at least domestically. Just idle curiosity.

Larry Cox
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Re: ATC scm7s & 11s on-wall monitors

Postby BenL » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:46 pm

Hi Larry,

Both AlmaataKZ and benny39 use / used passive centres with actives 50s as fronts. In fact, both used the c1c as a centre and both gave good reports. They both have threads with photos in the setup section of the forum.

Ben
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Re: ATC scm7s & 11s on-wall monitors

Postby Brad Lunde » Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:53 pm

Muser wrote:Brad Lunde wrote:
I use the C1C for a center with my 40s. Due to the small drivers, I expected the speaker to be bright. I was wrong-they are very warm with a much better/fuller midrange than I expected. I do not miss low end in the center. Since Movies traditionally put dialogue in the center, this turned out perfectly for my rig, as I switch to stereo with music.


I can see how the C1C would match well with 40s given they are both passive designs. How do you think a passive center channel would sound with active speakers? Were my wallet and commitments otherwise, I'd definitely choose the C3CA over the C3C or the C1C as it seems there's a difference in sound between the passive and active speakers. Unfortunately, the C3CA is three times the cost of the C3C and eight times the cost of the C1C, at least domestically. Just idle curiosity.

Larry Cox


Larry there is a big difference in RESOLUTION between actives and passives, not a difference in overall sonic footprint; some some small exceptions to that at the extremes of response due to changes speaker cables make and passive networks. While this is not an absolute that works 100% of the time, and forum readers should not run away with this statement, it is certainly applicable here in discussing a center to use with 40s. If you have the money, a higher resolution solution is always preferred.

SO if you want higher resolution I would think active 50s or 100s for left and right first? Then a higher resolution center? Since center is focused on dialogue for much of its use, investing into the highest resolution speaker in your system as the dialogue source would not seem to be a first choice.

Brad
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Re: ATC scm7s & 11s on-wall monitors

Postby Muser » Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:58 am

Hi Larry,

Both AlmaataKZ and benny39 use / used passive centres with actives 50s as fronts. In fact, both used the c1c as a centre and both gave good reports. They both have threads with photos in the setup section of the forum.

Ben


Ben, yes thanks for reminding me. Without access to comparing the two (C1C and C3C), I wonder whether the greater dynamic range might cause an experience of differing dynamic ranges. I won't claim to listen more carefully than others or even have hearing into the "bat range", but little things start niggle at me, and then I find myself back in the market, so to speak. I tend to shop long before I buy and I'm trying on in my head whether to save for a C1C, C3C or a C3CA - my wallet screams for the C1C and my curmudgeon self says, just get the C3CA and be done with it. My wallet is louder right now.

Larry there is a big difference in RESOLUTION between actives and passives . . . (snip)

Brad: The difference in resolution between passives and actives is marked, though to paraphrase your comment, they don't become different speakers. I'm watching videos more than listening these days so having a resolving center channel is rather attractive. I recall having the C2 system for a while and not needing or wanting subtitles, but that was a powered center channel; I wonder if simply adding a center channel to my two channel setup would improve dialog intelligibility without having to factor in the resolution qualities of passive versus actives. We've commenced watching movies with subtitles on even for English language films; sometimes in pursuit of "realism" movies have characters speaking away from the audience (and microphone) thereby reducing dialogue intelligibility. Not sure if this minor point is clear - let it go if it's not. I understand the sensibility of the movie makers and would probably make the same choices, but it's annoying to have to guess what's been said - maybe I'm just a cranky movie watcher! Or, maybe its the Onkyo? No idea.
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Re: ATC scm7s & 11s on-wall monitors

Postby hifi-av » Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:12 pm

Hi all

interesting thoughts on the centre, still trying to sort out what will fit.

looking like a passive 50 with wall 7's (x4) for the surrounds.

but this is a big outlay compaired with a c3c and 2 pair of 7's on the rear.

i would gain a better match on the the LR+C and ould not have 4 big boxes hanging at 7ft from floor level, they would be flush (ish) on the walls.

the alternative is to go passive 50 and look for anotehr brand for the rears! no something i want to do.

if only they made a 40 that you could turn on its side, ie the cones in the center and not the top.

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Re: ATC scm7s & 11s on-wall monitors

Postby MattSPL » Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:27 pm

hifi-av wrote:Hi all

interesting thoughts on the centre, still trying to sort out what will fit.

looking like a passive 50 with wall 7's (x4) for the surrounds.

but this is a big outlay compaired with a c3c and 2 pair of 7's on the rear.

i would gain a better match on the the LR+C and ould not have 4 big boxes hanging at 7ft from floor level, they would be flush (ish) on the walls.

the alternative is to go passive 50 and look for anotehr brand for the rears! no something i want to do.

if only they made a 40 that you could turn on its side, ie the cones in the center and not the top.


If you have the cash, i'm sure ATC can build you a custom centre exactly to your requirements.
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Re: ATC scm7s & 11s on-wall monitors

Postby Brad Lunde » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:08 pm

Muser wrote:SNIP>

Larry there is a big difference in RESOLUTION between actives and passives . . . (snip)/quote]
Brad: The difference in resolution between passives and actives is marked, though to paraphrase your comment, they don't become different speakers. I'm watching videos more than listening these days so having a resolving center channel is rather attractive. I recall having the C2 system for a while and not needing or wanting subtitles, but that was a powered center channel; I wonder if simply adding a center channel to my two channel setup would improve dialog intelligibility without having to factor in the resolution qualities of passive versus actives. We've commenced watching movies with subtitles on even for English language films; sometimes in pursuit of "realism" movies have characters speaking away from the audience (and microphone) thereby reducing dialogue intelligibility. Not sure if this minor point is clear - let it go if it's not. I understand the sensibility of the movie makers and would probably make the same choices, but it's annoying to have to guess what's been said - maybe I'm just a cranky movie watcher! Or, maybe its the Onkyo? No idea.


I think a dedicated center channel speaker definitely make dialogue clearer and easier to understand. I just tried this the other day, playing a movie I had previously heard on my 5.1 system with the (C1C+40's+ 19's) to a different TV with only a stereo rig, no center, processing in the TV to give me only stereo output. Dialogue unclear, a phantom center with weird image changes with listener location, hard to understand for sure. SO I think the powered unpowered issue is not the cause for your impression, its the center speaker vs no center speaker, stereo vs true 5.1.
Brad
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Re: ATC scm7s & 11s on-wall monitors

Postby BenL » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:03 pm

I agree. Obviously the C3C has less 'resolution' than the c3ca but at the end of the day this is still ATC we're talking about! I think it is a fabulous speaker, and the only problems I have with dialogue is in the mixing, ie the levels set too low compared to sound effects such as explosions. This is a common problem tho and nothing to do with the speakers. I do not consider that I am turning the volume up in order to hear the dialogue, rather turning it down for the effects in order not to upset the neighbours!
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Re: ATC scm7s & 11s on-wall monitors

Postby Brad Lunde » Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:20 am

BenL wrote:I agree. Obviously the C3C has less 'resolution' than the c3ca but at the end of the day this is still ATC we're talking about! I think it is a fabulous speaker, and the only problems I have with dialogue is in the mixing, ie the levels set too low compared to sound effects such as explosions. This is a common problem tho and nothing to do with the speakers. I do not consider that I am turning the volume up in order to hear the dialogue, rather turning it down for the effects in order not to upset the neighbours!


Ben
The truth is the deeper into the business of "hollywood" you get, the more warts you uncover. Given it takes 1500 people to make a movie and that a director is essentially creating a company for 3 to 5 years of 1000 people at any given time, then dissolving it all after the movie is released, explains some of the incredible mistakes and flubs. It just impossible to accomplish that much without a mistakes. And there isn't going backwards and fixing everything, "we did dialogue recording a year ago-the actor is on another movie now in Italy and we can't get him back". So your comment about relative levels varying absolutely true. I've had the exact conversation with more than one scoring mixer how the next audio mixer downstream messed up levels up between dialogue, music and effects.

While some hi fi customers distress over the idea they can hear these errors, ATC owners love the fact that they possess THE audio magnifying glass that enables a look beyond the velvet ropes!

Brad
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Re: ATC scm7s & 11s on-wall monitors

Postby BenL » Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:11 am

Interesting post Brad, thanks :) I guess historically only a few directors have had complete control over that 'company' - maybe deMille, Hitchcock and Kubrick - and even they probably wouldn't be able to today.
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Re: ATC scm7s & 11s on-wall monitors

Postby Muser » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:32 am

I think a dedicated center channel speaker definitely make dialogue clearer and easier to understand. I just tried this the other day, playing a movie I had previously heard on my 5.1 system with the (C1C+40's+ 19's) to a different TV with only a stereo rig, no center, processing in the TV to give me only stereo output. Dialogue unclear, a phantom center with weird image changes with listener location, hard to understand for sure. SO I think the powered unpowered issue is not the cause for your impression, its the center speaker vs no center speaker, stereo vs true 5.1.
Brad


OK, thanks Brad, it appears you've done some of my "research" for me.

BenL wrote:
I agree. Obviously the C3C has less 'resolution' than the c3ca but at the end of the day this is still ATC we're talking about! I think it is a fabulous speaker, and the only problems I have with dialogue is in the mixing, ie the levels set too low compared to sound effects such as explosions. This is a common problem tho and nothing to do with the speakers. I do not consider that I am turning the volume up in order to hear the dialogue, rather turning it down for the effects in order not to upset the neighbours!


Ben, it appears you have SCM11s for LR and C3C's for a center channel. Did you listen to the C1C as well? What had you choose the 3C3 instead?
Not to spoil the plot or poison your response, but I wondered whether the greater dynamic range of the C3C might create a bit more "space" for dialog to open up and become more intelligible. The difference in price in the US is about $1,000 between the C1C and the C3C, which is something but not terrible. But my issue, after living with three different passive ATCs is I'd want at least 150 watts for the C3C, maybe less for the C1C and both would need to be of better quality. My delicate (or pretentious?) ears hear a difference, especially with the dynamic range of ATCs at lower volumes. For me, ATC are just better speakers when well powered. So, that adds considerably to the cost of the C3C. - I just noticed you have an Onkyo 886, I have the 885(b) and the video board has gone out. Trying to decide whether to fix the board or give it to my brother in law as a two channel upgrade for his system and go buy a used Anthem. Lots of plans at the moment and not enough available cash. :roll:

Larry
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Re: ATC scm7s & 11s on-wall monitors

Postby BenL » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:21 am

Muser wrote:Ben, it appears you have SCM11s for LR and C3C's for a center channel. Did you listen to the C1C as well? What had you choose the 3C3 instead?
Not to spoil the plot or poison your response, but I wondered whether the greater dynamic range of the C3C might create a bit more "space" for dialog to open up and become more intelligible. The difference in price in the US is about $1,000 between the C1C and the C3C, which is something but not terrible. But my issue, after living with three different passive ATCs is I'd want at least 150 watts for the C3C, maybe less for the C1C and both would need to be of better quality. My delicate (or pretentious?) ears hear a difference, especially with the dynamic range of ATCs at lower volumes. For me, ATC are just better speakers when well powered. So, that adds considerably to the cost of the C3C. - I just noticed you have an Onkyo 886, I have the 885(b) and the video board has gone out. Trying to decide whether to fix the board or give it to my brother in law as a two channel upgrade for his system and go buy a used Anthem. Lots of plans at the moment and not enough available cash. :roll:

Larry


Hi Larry,

Knowing ATC well, I didn't demo either. There's a similar price gap in the UK (FWIW I think the C1C is remarkable value) but at the time I felt I could afford the more expensive model. My reasoning was the importance of having a matching centre as far as possible. The ideal is obviously to have an identical speaker for centre as for LR but for me, like most people, this would not have been practical. The C3C therefore seemed to be the best choice as it has matching drivers to the 11s. At least to my ears, the front soundfield is seamless, and I am very happy. I don't think either centre would match your drivers so this consideration isn't entirely relevant. I agree about power and ATCs. I use the Primare A30.5 to drive my speakers which has either 100w or 120w per channel and seems to work very well.

I'm sorry to hear about your onkyo. Mine hasn't skipped a beat (touch wood) since I bought it about it two years ago. I got it second hand but it seems to have come from a very good home. You have a lot of good options for pre/pros where you are and I'm guessing Anthem is a lot cheaper in North America than when it is imported here. They would certainly be high on my audition list if I ever had to change. If you had a decent blu ray player with analogue outs (Oppo is also well priced in the US I believe) you could probably pick up a really excellent older pre pro at a good price second hand.

Let us know as your thoughts develop :)

Ben
HiFi: Sonos & Primare -> ATC SCM40

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