Importance of channels

ATC & other makes of Home Cinema equipment
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Importance of channels

Postby Mariner » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:45 pm

I ask myself which channel in a 7.1 system has morgen importance?
The front presence, or the rear channel.
For Front i have Scm 20, Center is C4CA.
Now i ask myself where i Put the Scm10 and the SCM7?
Scm 10 as Front presence or as rear speakers?
Please let me know what you Are thinking!

Thanks!

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Re: Importance of channels

Postby Mariner » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:57 pm

The focus should be on watching music video's and multichannel music.
Movie's Are not so important!

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Re: Importance of channels

Postby Brad Lunde » Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:49 pm

Mariner wrote:I ask myself which channel in a 7.1 system has morgen importance?
The front presence, or the rear channel.
For Front i have Scm 20, Center is C4CA.
Now i ask myself where i Put the Scm10 and the SCM7?
Scm 10 as Front presence or as rear speakers?
Please let me know what you Are thinking!

Thanks!


I have a 9.1 system of all ATC. SCM40 V2s passives up front, C1 center and SCM 7s all around, driven by the big Yamaha receiver. The purpose of a high channel count system is not what you'd think- its to make the speakers disappear into the sound field by presenting more [playback] sources. SO with a 5,1 system, the source of the sound is very identifiable. That speaker there, that speaker there, very easy to hear the playback speaker position. AS you increase channel count it becomes harder and harder to figure out where the sound is coming from. In 9.1, its far less easy than in a 5.1. 9.1= L/C/R, single sub, Front upper L/R (called presence by Yamaha), wide Surround L/R, rear surround L/R. This sound is amazing in my book, if you love movies.

Everything but the front height speakers ("presence") are in the same plane. When you get beyond that single plane, things get interesting with both motion and location of objects in the sound field. Upper L/R front and back with overheads between enables motion, such as the sound in Star Trek "Into Darkness" when the space ship flies directly over the viewer's head from front to back. I've heard it at Dolby but not yet in my house. I need more speakers!

The additional plane also enables more 3D positioning of objects, such as rain hitting leaves over your head. In movie audio world, this new type of audio mixing is called Object Based mixing where the mixer can position something in 3D space and keep it there or make it move. It is a powerful addition to the video when executed correctly. However, few of us have sat in the Dolby Labs or at DTS and heard how good it can be.

SO in starting, begin with 5.1, then add additional surrounds 7.1 (same plane) then go to new plane with height speakers 9.1.

Brad
Brad Lunde
Lone Mountain Audio, part of TransAudio Group
ATC Importers USA

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Re: Importance of channels

Postby Mariner » Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:51 pm

Thanks a lot for your advice Brad !!

But as i wrote my focus is not that much in films like you are talking about.
My aim is to create a "big front stage" like you have in a live concert.
So, from my point of view, it´s more interesting to think about a 5.1.2 system.
With rear speakers that have more a side/back position, and an additional speaker in the front.

Yamaha called it "presence" or "dialog lift".
At the moment my 5.1 system has a Yamaha RX-V3067 with 4 ProAc Tablette as front and rears,
a C4CA as center, and a Dynaudio sub.
In my stereo system there are the SCM20, but i will put the systems together, which means to
take out the ProAc´s, and integrate a pair of SCM7 and a pair of SCM10-2A.
Front for the SCM20 !!
But i´m not shure where to put the SCM7 and 10´s ??
I have no idea how intensiv the front presence speaker is working.
It seems to depend on which kind reciever/preamp you use, and which programms are available.
You need at least a Cinema DSP 3D/HD3 system/programm to use the FP (front presence).
But it will increase when you have Dolby Atmos or DTS.X or maybe Auro3D.

My question is now how senseful is the use of a FP with my stuff, because the RX-V3067 has only Cinema DSP 3D.
And i have heared that, if you use DSP 3D programm the sound will get worse by getting more" space".
If you run native 5.1 in the "straight" mode , the FP won´t work .
So maybe a new Preamp/Reciever (with Atmos/DTS.X) is needed to make a FP more senseful ??

Maybe it is not so easy to add a new channel, that i thought before ! :P

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Re: Importance of channels

Postby studioman » Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:28 pm

In theory all channels should be balanced, and most AV systems have an auto setup mode to do this.

Most movies have relatively LITTLE sound emanating from the rear speakers. Most is from the centre front and the sides (the stereo speakers)

In practice, with movies I tend to think of the centre channel being the most important as it focuses on the onscreen voices.

With music of course the stereo front speakers tend to be most important.

I have found a personal preference for my AV system NOT to be balanced, but for the rear speaker levels to be raised a couple of steps and for the stereo speakers to be up a step or so too. It just emphasises the 'surroundness' of the system.
They say if you can remember the 60's, you weren't really there. Now somehow I have reached 62...oh shit, it's 63 now....How and when did THAT happen?....there's a lesson there somewhere if only I could figure it out...

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Re: Importance of channels

Postby Brad Lunde » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:20 pm

Mariner wrote:Thanks a lot for your advice Brad !!

But as i wrote my focus is not that much in films like you are talking about.
My aim is to create a "big front stage" like you have in a live concert.
So, from my point of view, it´s more interesting to think about a 5.1.2 system.
<SNIP> :P


I think if you have a larger multichannel receiver that does 11.2, it asks you what your speaker arrangement is and then gives you that output arrangement. I know I can do 5.1 plus height on my system if I want. But again, it is DSP, not real. The receiver is creating the height channel as mixes are not done this way. The point I am apparently ineffectively making is if it isn't mixed a particular way, you cannot play it back that way without some kind of DSP derived "creation". These creations never sound great and often have artifacts. We saw this with "enhanced surround" or turning stereo to 5.1 with your receiver. There are high end processors in broadcast that can work , but they cost many times the cost of a consumer receiver.

With object based mixing, this will be a possibility. Look for this from DTS "X".

Brad
Brad Lunde
Lone Mountain Audio, part of TransAudio Group
ATC Importers USA

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